Food Related Urinary Issues

[LoveNewfies]

There are studies (don't have the links right now) linking grains to urinary problems - mainly in cats but it certainly would make sense for dogs to have a problem, too.  Something to do with the carbs actually leaching minerals from the body and basically creating an overload to be flushed out of the system, hence, creating struvite crystals.  I will add that water consumption also played a huge role - not enough water was consumed to aid in flushing the excessive amount minerals that were "leached" so it is likely to be more problematic for cats than for dogs.  I don't remember if the study showed less abosorption of the minerals when higher carbs were consumed, or if the carbs actually were thought to have leached the minerals from the body, or both.  When I have time, I'll pull up some studies that linked carbs to urinary problems.  Basically, the studies were to learn the effect of carbs in the commercial diets of carnivores (again, cats were used in the study but I think it would be fairly safe to assume similar problems may result with dogs).  Someone remind me over the weekend and I'll pull out all my research.

[Mary [deryni]]

I would definitely be interested in reading those studies if you get a chance to post them.

It really is black and white for Anna - she gets grains she leaks...  No grains, she's fine.  And I know Min had a leaking problem (have to that Tinkle Tonic!)

I do like Wellness canned, though mostly feeding it to the cats.

[minniesmom]

 

[SarahM]

carina's cranky since i switched her from wellness canned mixed w/ her kibble to innova canned - brat

[LoveNewfies]

Ironically, I often recommend Wellness canned for cats with urinary issues with great success.  I just hope their quality doesn't deteriorate too much.  I'm not a huge advocate of dry food for cats, but, that's all some will eat.  I don't recommend Wellness for dogs unless they are coming off a real crappy food and the owners won't feed fresh and won't buy a more premium kibble.  It's not terrible - just not wonderful.  It's definitely far better than many foods out there.

Mary, as soon as I have a chance, I'll pull out my research and find the links.

[minniesmom]

 why is it so frigging $$ if it's crap food? 

I don't wnat the leaking to start again.. 

I'm taking the bag back tomorrow, and I think I may stick with Plat for a couple more bags.. then think about switching her a bit more slowly.

[Mary [deryni]]

Science Diet is really really $$$ and it's all crap.  Dunno why Wellness is a lot though.

[LoveNewfies]

Wellness was a better food - grain heavy, but, always used good ingredients. 

Like I said, it's far better than others but, IMO, not worth the money when you look at what else is out their in the same price range.

Terri, you may consider trying a grain-free kibble for Minnie - if you think food is causing the itchies, that would be good place to start, plus, with her leaking issues, I would definitely avoid grains.  Maybe a fish and potato blend - unless, of course, we can convince you to do a home prepared diet 

[Ingrid]

Hmmmm, I feed mine Wellness and have not seen any staining of the teeth.....I think it's a fine food! I don't know what you alls are talking about!  Sure it has grains in it, but it's whole grains/good grains (3 of the 4 are also used in Natura foods: ground barley, ground brown rice, oats. Innova also uses white rice and Innova Senior has rice bran and rice). I would also love to see the studies linking grains to urinary disfunction, and which grains specifically.  Can someone elaborate on why the changes to the formula have degraded the food? What is your source for this information? The reason it's expensive, and the reason I like it, is because they use human grade ingredients. I have never seen Wellness available at a chain petstore...

Eagle Pack has corn in it.

[LoveNewfies]

I do believe Eagle Pack Holistic doesn't have corn.

It's not necessarily that Wellness has grains - it's the percentage of grains versus meat ingredients thats high.  Some dogs do fine on it, some don't.  They have always used decent quality ingredients but thay have also started changing some of their formulas. 

Wellness is starting to show up in more chain pet stores around here - Wellness went through some corporate structural changes - operations have moved and money is now a more primary objective for the company.  Sources directly from Old Mother Hubbard (mother company of Wellness) will confirm changes.  Naturally, they will deny degradation of products, but, they will confirm corporate changes, move of production and change in formulas - cost effectiveness and drive to become bigger players in the market will continue to bring changes. 

If it works for your Wookies - that's great.  I would just keep an eye on formulary changes and keep your eyes and ears on market changes.

Now, onto carbs and urinary problems:

 recent study evaluated the effects of dietary carbohydrates on urine volume, struvite crystal formation and calcium, phosphorus and magnesium balance in clinically normal cats. The study, documented in the American Journal of Veterinary Research, concluded that starch and fiber in diets may stimulate the formation of struvite crystals. Therefore, in order to prevent the formation of struvite crystals, pet owners should reduce dietary carbohydrates in their cat’s diet.  In addition, feeding of a high fiber diet caused a net loss of body calcium, phosphorus and magnesium. This suggests that dietary inclusion of insoluble fiber could increase macromineral requirements of cats.1

American Journal of Veterinary Research February 2004 (Vol 65; No. 2: pp. 127-252 abstract only as access to the studies require membership or $15.00

http://avmajournals.avma.org/action/showMultipleAbstracts


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14974568

Protein  & struvite crystals
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8950426

There is more but I'm at work and will have to dig out all my research at home 

[LoveNewfies]

OK - well, the above link for the AVMA is bringing up a blank page, so, I'll copy & paste but for those of you that have a memebership, you can access the entire study.


Abstract
American Journal of Veterinary Research
February 2004, Vol. 65, No. 2, Pages 138-142
doi:10.2460/ajvr.2004.65.138



Evaluation of effects of dietary carbohydrate on formation of struvite crystals in urine and macromineral balance in clinically normal cats

Dr. Masayuki Funaba, PhDAkira Uchiyama, BSKen-ichiro Takahashi, DVMMasahiro Kaneko, BSHiromi Yamamoto, DVMKazuhiko Namikawa, DVM, PhDTsunenori Iriki, PhDYoshikazu Hatano, BSMatanobu Abe, PhD
Laboratory of Nutrition, School of Veterinary Medicine, Azabu University, 1-17-71 Fuchinobe, Sagamihara 229-8501, Japan. (Funaba, Uchiyama, Takahashi, Namikawa, Iriki, Abe); Research and Development Center, Nihon Nosan Kogyo K. K., 5246 Takura, Tsukuba 300-2615, Japan. (Kaneko, Yamamoto, Hatano)
Objective—To evaluate effects of dietary carbohydrate on urine volume; struvite crystal formation; and calcium, phosphorus, and magnesium balance in clinically normal cats.

Animals—21 healthy adult cats (15 sexually intact males and 6 sexually intact females).

Procedure—Diets containing no carbohydrate source (control diet), control plus starch, or control plus fiber were given in a 3 × 3 Latin-square design. The diets were available ad libitum in study 1 (n = 12) and given under restrictions in study 2 (9) to equalize daily intakes of crude protein among the 3 groups. Formation of struvite crystals and balance of calcium, phosphorus, and magnesium were measured.

Results—Urine volume was lower in the starch group and fiber group in study 1, whereas no differences were detected among the groups in study 2. Urinary pH and struvite activity product were higher in the starch group in both studies, and the fiber group also had higher struvite activity product in study 2. In both studies, urinary concentrations of HCl-insoluble sediment were higher in the starch group and fiber group. In the fiber group, a net loss of body calcium, phosphorus, and magnesium was detected in study 2.

Conclusions and Clinical Relevance—Starch and fiber in diets potentially stimulate formation of struvite crystals. Hence, reducing dietary carbohydrate is desirable to prevent struvite urolith formation. In addition, a net loss of body calcium, phosphorus, and magnesium during feeding of the fiber diet suggests that dietary inclusion of insoluble fiber could increase macromineral requirements of cats. (Am J Vet Res 2004;65:138–142)

[minniesmom]

Thanks Gail!

[Ingrid]

Gee, I wish they would do a similar study in dogs. Some info may transfer, but cat's have a pretty different metabolism from dogs, and are susceptible to many more diseases than dogs. Thanks for the links and stuff, Gail!

[LoveNewfies]

Me too, Ingrid.  But, we see more of a problem in cats due to their lack of water consumption in comparison to dogs, therefore, more of an inclination to do the study with cats instead of dogs.  It's such a huge problem for cats - problematic for dogs as well, but, seems to be almost epidemic in cats these days.  Hm - wonder why that is?

Honestly, I think if the same study were done with dogs, similarities would be found.  The fact of the matter is, carbohydrates in such large amounts aren't natural for cats or dogs and are bound to have a negative effect on them at least to some degree. Finally studies like this are being done. 

[Ingrid]

ooh, ooh, look what I found!

 Am J Vet Res. 2002 Mar;63(3):330-7.   

Associations between dry dietary factors and canine calcium oxalate uroliths.

Lekcharoensuk C, Osborne CA, Lulich JP, Pusoonthornthum R, Kirk CA, Ulrich LK, Koehler LA, Carpenter KA, Swanson LL.

Minnesota Urolith Center, Department of Small Animal Clinical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine, University of Minnesota, St Paul 55108, USA.

OBJECTIVE: To identify factors in dry diets associated with the occurrence of calcium oxalate (CaOx) uroliths in dogs. ANIMALS: 600 dogs with CaOx uroliths and 898 dogs without urinary tract diseases. PROCEDURE: Univariate and multivariate logistic regression were performed. RESULTS: Compared with diets with the highest concentrations of sodium, dry diets with the lowest concentrations of sodium, phosphorus, calcium, chloride, protein, magnesium, or potassium were linearly associated with increased risk of CaOx urolith formation. Significant nonlinear associations between increased occurrence of CaOx uroliths and urine acidifying potential and low moisture content were observed. Significant nonlinear associations between decreased occurrence of CaOx uroliths and carbohydrate and fiber contents were observed. A significant association between the occurrence of CaOx uroliths and dietary fat was not observed. CONCLUSIONS AND CLINICAL RELEVANCE: Results suggest that dry diets formulated to contain high concentrations of protein, calcium, phosphorus, magnesium, sodium, potassium, and chloride may minimize formation of CaOx uroliths. In addition, comparison of risk and protective factors of various diet ingredients fed to dogs with CaOx uroliths suggests that although similar findings were observed in canned and dry formulations, in general, greater risk is associated with dry formulations. However, before these hypotheses about dietary modifications are adopted by food manufacturers, they must be investigated by use of appropriately designed clinical studies of dogs with CaOx urolithiasis.

PMID: 11911566 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Just looking at CaOx crystals, though. I don't know what kind of urolith is most common in dogs....

[KatMoon]

  You sound excited Ingrid. For those of us who are a scientlifically challenged and don't have time to brush up their rudiment knowledge: please put it into simple words?

[Ingrid]

 

Ok, a linear relationship between two variables means that as one increases (or decreases) the other variable increases (or decreases) by the same amount. So a nonlinear association btw decreased CaOx crystals and carbs/fiber content means that there is a realtionship between the two, but it's not cut and dry. So less carbs/fiber does seem to result in less crystal formation, but it's not like if there's 10x less carbs/fiber there will be 10x fewer crystals. Make sense?

[Ingrid]

Here's another study by the same group, only they examined canned foods. Same results. (Terri, if you don't want all this in your thread, tell me to stop!)

Am J Vet Res. 2002 Feb;63(2):163-9.   Related Articles, Links

Associations between dietary factors in canned food and formation of calcium oxalate uroliths in dogs.

Lekcharoensuk C, Osborne CA, Lulich JP, Pusoonthornthum R, Kirk CA, Ulrich LK, Koehler LA, Carpenter KA, Swanson LL.

Minnesota Urolith Center, Department of Small Animal Clinical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine, University of Minnesota, St Paul 55108, USA.

OBJECTIVE: To identify dietary factors in commercially available canned foods associated with the development of calcium oxalate (CaOx) uroliths in dogs. ANIMALS: 117 dogs with CaOx uroliths and 174 dogs without urinary tract disease. PROCEDURE: Case dogs were those that developed CaOx uroliths submitted to the Minnesota Urolith Center for quantitative analysis between 1990 and 1992 while fed a commercially available canned diet. Control dogs were those without urinary tract disease evaluated at the same veterinary hospital just prior to or immediately after each case dog. A content-validated multiple-choice questionnaire was mailed to each owner of case and control dogs with the permission of the primary care veterinarian. Univariate and multivariate logistic regressions for each dietary component were performed to test the hypothesis that a given factor was associated with CaOx urolith formation. RESULTS: Canned foods with the highest amount of protein, fat, calcium, phosphorus, magnesium, sodium, potassium, chloride, or moisture were associated with a decreased risk of CaOx urolith formation, compared with diets with the lowest amounts. In contrast, canned diets with the highest amount of carbohydrate were associated with an increased risk of CaOx urolith formation. CONCLUSIONS AND CLINICAL RELEVANCE: Feeding canned diets formulated to contain high amounts of protein, fat, calcium, phosphorus, magnesium, sodium, potassium, chloride, and moisture and a low amount of carbohydrate may minimize the risk of CaOx urolith formation in dogs.

[SarahM]

science geek!! i mean that nicely

[LoveNewfies]

Good job, Ingrid  

I think we've presented adequate information to safely say a diet rich in animal protein, not carbohydrates, provides a better environment within the body of a carnivore to help preven urinary crystal formation, struvite and oxalate - which, in turn, keeps the urinary tract far healthier and less likely to be problematic.

Old school thought was that magnesium in the food was a huge contributor - ash being a big problem.  Now, studies have proven that to be wrong.  

FYI - struvite crystals for some time were a more common issue than oxalate - however, with such emphasis on altering PH through additives in the food to prevent struvites, oxalate has become increasingly common.



ETA:  Sorry, Terri - didn't mean to send this thread so far off on you.  I hope it's been a bit helpful to you, anyway.     I really try not to be so overwhelming with animal nutrition and health, I just can't help it and sometimes it takes over my brain and I can't help but spill it all out to everyone around me (hangs head in shame)  I'm out of control.

[minniesmom]

Ingrid, this is all very interesting!
Why don't you start a topic in the health reference section? I think others may find some of this useful.

http://dogaddicts.com/smf/index.php?board=108.0

If you want , I can move all of these posts over there.

[SarahM]

out of control - lol - wild and crazy and scientifically nutty! hehe

[Ingrid]

Sounds good, Terri, then I can keep adding to it. 

[LoveNewfies]

I have to say, Ingrid, I'm quite excited that someone else has taken such interest in the effects of carbohydrates on urinary crystal development - and the fact that you're coming up with studies that back up what I've found.  It's been a hard one to sell, so to speak, because most vets have not changed their ways of treating urinary problems - they still insist on prescription diets and additives rather than going back to a diet thats correct for the species and that makes it far more difficult to convince people to make appropriate changes.

Anway, Ingrid - I appreciate knowing there is another Dog Addict as deep into the geeky & obsessive canine nutrition research as I 

[KivaLuver]

Sure it has grains in it, but it's whole grains/good grains  

Ingrid, don't make me pull a Mo on you a poke you in the eye!  This discussion is very, very good. I have enjoyed reading it more than once to say the least.

If folks will spend this much time and attention learning about dog nutrition and so forth regarding commercial/dry/canned foods, why won't they just jump on the band wagon to make a home made diet?

Yes, another shameless plug for home feeding.....